What is the next Crown Victoria?

"LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com" (limitedtimeonly) 12/19/2018 at 08:45 • Filed to: Question of the Day

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Lots of people buying used cars have liked cheap, readily available Crown Vics, but they are slowly dying out. Given that the Crown Vic was used in the US for police and other government roles, and produced for a long time ( !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! ), there are many used examples, it has been recognized as quite reliable, and many people know how to maintain them cheaply.

So, readily available due to heavy fleet representation , cheap to acquire, reasonable to maintain, and roomy . What, then, is the successor in that role in the US used car market?

My first thought would be the Dodge Charger, but another contender might be the Ford Explorer. Maybe these don’t work if you cannot find them used with “police” option packages. What do you think?

OmerCarrothers333 > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 08:58

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I thought Crown Vics had been built since 1979?

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 09:05

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Ford Explorer. Not a doubt in my mind.  

MultiplaOrgasms > OmerCarrothers333 12/19/2018 at 09:05

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The Name first appeared in the mid 1950s and was resurrected initially as a trim level of the LTD in 1980, and later as a stand alone model, until 1991 it was called the LTD Crown Victoria.

jimz > OmerCarrothers333 12/19/2018 at 09:06

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it’s a minor quibble, but “Crown Victoria” as the name plate started in 1992.  Before that it was “LTD Crown Victoria.”

BrianGriffin thinks “reliable” is just a state of mind > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 09:06

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The pre-D3 Explorers for sure.  The police Taurus has also rapidly depreciated. For “normal” cars, probably any Chevy or ford sedan. 

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > OmerCarrothers333 12/19/2018 at 09:09

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I was relying on Wikipedia for that, per the link.

Jayhawk Jake > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 09:26

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Unpopular opinion - the popularity of the Crown Vic is overestimated, it’s more a case of a few loud fans making it seem like the second coming .

The vast majority of car enthusiasts I interact with couldn’t care less about the Crown Victoria. Sure, there are many of them on the road being driven by non-enthusiasts as well, but it’s not like their numbers are far greater than many other vehicles.

There will be no new Crown Vic - nothing will ever be as cheap and inspire as much undeserved praise as this platform. It will wither away and become a forgotten car culture niche as its current enthusiast corner is overtaken by cheap Mustangs, cheap Camaros, and a plethora of Honda/Hyundai/Kia econoboxes. 

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > Jayhawk Jake 12/19/2018 at 09:31

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I don’t think of it as an enthusiast car, although I agree that some of the owners seem to think that way. I just think that if someone had limited funds and wanted a readily available car, one easy answer has been the used Crown Vic because of wide fleet use .

It is the fact that there isn’t an obvious successor that causes me to ask the question.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 09:31

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the PPV Caprice. old school, RWD, L77 6.0. Pretty much only available at Police Auctions. plus they are super ugly, and plain looking. 

Ash78, voting early and often > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 09:32

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Tahoe. Also used for cop duty exhaustively for many years, plus countless examples in the private sector of them taking a beating and holding up great.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > Ash78, voting early and often 12/19/2018 at 09:34

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I can’t believe that I didn’t include that on my list! Particularly because I even looked at them in government surplus auctions a couple of times.

FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 09:38

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It might be regional, but ex-police Explorers are becoming pretty common around me and can be had for under $10k. Ford has already sold more of this generation of Explorer (1.8 million) than Crown Vics over the entire 1992-2011 run (1.5 million). I’m guessing there are more police CVs out there overall, but Ford is at 160k and counting on this Explorer. Like the CV parts should be plentiful. Even though it get replaced next year, this generation of Explorer should be a hit with people looking for a roomy and comfy but durable vehicle. In fact, since they will take another depreciation hit when the new one comes over what’s already been a pretty big drop from list price, I’m guessing they will pretty much take over the CV role in the used car market.

Urambo Tauro > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 10:15

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I don’t think there will ever be a true successor to the Crown Vic that ticks all the boxes. No other car is as ubiquitous as to dominate police and taxi fleets while being simultaneously available to the public. Simplicity and cheap maintenance are going away too , leaving the used m arket to deal with increasingly complex cars that were, frankly, intended to be disposable.

ranwhenparked > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 10:32

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1992 was when they dropped "LTD" from in front of the name, making it simply "Crown Victoria" instead of "LTD Crown Victoria" , but the chassis goes back to '79. 1992 did give it it's first and only full restyle with an all-new body shell, though.

GarageBoy > Ash78, voting early and often 12/19/2018 at 11:04

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Cheap, rwd, ls motors - shorter than a crown Vic - would love to lower one as a highway cruiser - but dailying one in NYC would suck

For Sweden > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 11:23

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You answered your own question; the Charger

For Sweden > Jayhawk Jake 12/19/2018 at 11:23

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It’s a good car Jay

Tex > Jayhawk Jake 12/19/2018 at 11:46

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Obviously a bow tie fan, given your negative comments.

Old crown vics are EVERYWHERE, to the point where they’re inadvertently causing people to slow down because they think it’s a cop.

Here’s one that started life as a joke, and ended up making more than 1000 hp:

https://youtu.be/uiyJESyt3HA

So, yeah, hate on them all you want, but there's no denying they're still out there in droves, and running well.

Tex > Urambo Tauro 12/19/2018 at 11:49

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There is one car: Taurus. That’s a favorite of rental fleets, and they’ve flooded that part of the used car (mid-size) market as well. Old Taruses' are EVERYWHERE, cheap, and reasonably reliable. Enthusiast cars? Never, but they never were meant to be (save the SHO's). 

Steveofthenw > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 12:16

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Here’s the thing: I’m not a wealthy man. I can’t afford the latest robot ...er... car as a daily driver. As far as an enthusiast vehicle, I have a sporting motorcycle. Thus, for basic transpo, I turned to a crown vic cop car. It is over built & understressed. It has been maintained regularly as a fleet vehicle. Parts are c heap & plentiful & it isn’t so complex that I can’t fix it myself. It is complete utility; it is everything I need & nothing I dont. And show me anot her car, craigslist special or whatever, that can be had for 2 grand with 80k on the clock that doesn't have a salvage title or another zero on the odometer. Got mine at auction, threw an infotainment system with Bluetooth & nav in it along with cruise control & it's perfect. For the kind if enthusiast I am, it's a cool car.

Jayhawk Jake > Tex 12/19/2018 at 12:19

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>obviously a bow tie fan

LMFAO I literally only own a Ford Mustang

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Tex 12/19/2018 at 12:21

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“ Running well”

Bruh, it’s a 4.6, it never ran that well to begin with.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Tex 12/19/2018 at 12:26

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There’s a shitload of Pontiac Grand Ams still running around too. Doesn’t mean they aren’t total piles of shit.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > Jayhawk Jake 12/19/2018 at 12:32

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Based on your “ Camero” plate, you’re clearly a repressed bow tie fan.

Jayhawk Jake > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 12:35

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I guess I don’t see the easy answer as crown vic outside of the small community that praises them. To most people the easy answer for ‘I have little money and need a reliable car’ is Camry, Corolla, Civic, etc.

To your point though, it is true that fleets were somewhat dominated by them for a while, and that hasn’t really been the case for a number of years. When you look at current rental car fleets, for example, they are significantly more diverse. In the police space it’s still largely dominated by a few models, but I suppose I find it hard to believe that those will ever be as affordable as the CVPI because cars are inherently more complex and expensive today.

Which takes me back to your initial question: What car will be “readily available due to heavy fleet representation, cheap to acquire, reasonable to maintain, and roomy” - to me the answer is ‘no single car’.

It would be interesting to see how police car fleet size as a proportion of overall automobile population has changed in the last 20-30 years though, as I suspect it has decreased simply because overall population and by nature of the maturation of newborns from the 80s/90s/00s has probably driven a growth in total car population. In other words, I would hypothesize that there are more non-fleet cars than in the past, which means the used car market is going to be far more saturated by diversity than it previously would have been saturated by ex-fleet vehicles.

Additionally, the crown vic as a cornerstone of reliability is less of a factor today as most pedestrian cars are quite reliable. While the CV may have existed in a niche space of old school reliability among a breadth of new technology competitors throughout the 90s, as we go into the late 00s early 10s the availability of cars the meet the ‘cheap/reliable’ space has also increased.

Finally, crash standards and styling trends have all but eliminated the ‘roomy’ car in the lower end of the cost space. Even a modern Charger is less ‘roomy’ than your bargain CV, and the fullsize sedan segment has essentially evaporated, replaced by small to midsize CUVs.

So to recap: There aren’t really any cars built since ‘08 that truly dominate fleets, fleets don’t make up as much of the used car market as they once did, reliability has trended positive, and styling has altered the landscape of cars drastically. All these combined mean there isn’t a car on the market today that will become the CV of tomorrow. It’s more likely to be a group of cars, probably the midsize non-luxury sedans that are the Kia Optima, Hyundai Sonata, Honda Accord, Toyota Camry, Nissan Altima , and Ford Fusion.

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > Steveofthenw 12/19/2018 at 12:35

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Great point about it being overbuilt. Glad that it is the right car for you, and so many people.

So, if you need to replace it in 5 or 10 years, what do you think might be a similar used offering?

Massivemunge > For Sweden 12/19/2018 at 15:14

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Yeah! Forget mr downer up there if u want 200 plus n/a hp and a piss ton of torque for the cost of one minimum wage paycheck. This American dinosaur with v8 and probably a traclock rear end is not a pile of rot or missing parts unlike most cars in the same price, power or platform brackets. Get in start it up and just melt the tires off with zero effort at all. For those of you tight on cash and not interested in rediculous car loans or wasting your trust fund on “mods” ... this is the only way you are going to have any fun. So.. very little investment required for fun is all I’m saying. They’re are more important things to spend money on so I decided to buy a bumper sticker that says I am a huge  dick instead of a mustang gt and I’m happy. Volvo p2 if you know what to look for and how to fix it they are a steal right now. Problem is the value will never go back up.

Spanfeller is a twat > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 15:22

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Toyota Prius. 

Massivemunge > Jayhawk Jake 12/19/2018 at 15:25

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Damn good point, you’re totally right but those are all such lame soccer mom cars. Like don’t look at me just another boring blob rolling down the road two mph under the limit. Wtf the future is bleak. At least with the few saggy minivans driving around now it’s like watching jerry springer through  interpretive driving

M.T. Blake > Ash78, voting early and often 12/19/2018 at 16:42

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They hold their value too well. We’ve sold work Tahoe’s with 140k miles, 4x4, beat up, for 12k trade in. Government Crown Vics were around 1500-3000 wholesale. That’s four times as valuable at the end of life...

M.T. Blake > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 16:46

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There will never be another Crown Victoria. The government market is too eclectic now: Explorer, Tahoe, Charger, Caprice, Taurus, F150, Silverado, Ram. None of those have the foothold the CV did. Even with the large foothold, what did they sell a year? 15,000 ? That isn’t a lot of volume when compared to the fact there’s nearly 1/2 million Ford trucks sold a year.

Ash78, voting early and often > M.T. Blake 12/19/2018 at 16:57

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Yep, I agree -- the better-kept Tahoes can hold value almost as well as Wranglers or 4Runners, from what little I’ve seen. And they’re freaking everywhere, so parts and mechanical help is plentiful (and cheap).

ranwhenparked > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 18:05

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The only real alternative to the Crown Victoria from a  reliability and durability standpoint has pretty much always been either a Camry or an Avalon. Unless you want to move into a full-size pickup or SUV, in which case, Tahoe, Suburban, or any of the big pickups. 

TheDutchTexan > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 21:06

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There are absolutely no cars out there that will become the next Crown Vic. Why? Because they aren’t old school simple V8 body on frame goodness.

I own a 07 Grand Marquis that is my daily driver and highway warrior. It is the most comfortable car at 80mph I have ever owned. I’d love to build it up a little, but the realist in me know it’ll never happen. It’s fun to dream about it though. Suspension, Limited slip (keeping the 2.73 gears as I drive a lot of highway, headers, stock style downturn exhaust and a procharger bringing it all to ~ 350whp would surprise a lot of folks with it’s quickness as they realize they need to go WOT to beat that thing.

RiverRivers > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 21:21

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I replaced my ‘04 Grand Marquis with a excellent condition 2010 Grand Marquis earlier this year because there is no new Crown Vic.

RiverRivers > Jayhawk Jake 12/19/2018 at 21:25

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I replaced a Grand Marquis with another Grand Marquis this year but I completely agree with you on this.

Jayhawk Jake > Massivemunge 12/19/2018 at 22:30

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And a crown vic isn’t a boring mom car?

Maxima Speed > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 12/19/2018 at 22:35

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oooooohhh!!!!!!!!

Maxima Speed > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 22:35

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Chevy Impala

Shawn > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/19/2018 at 23:38

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As an owner of a 383 superch arged 96 impala, I use a grand marquis as a reliable daily driver since gm made noth ing newer I wanted. Now no one makes anything I want. I have asked myself the replacement vehicle question many times. A used grand marquis driven by an 80 year old couple is just a gently used, but still rugged crown vic. In the future I will be force d into an overpriced, overcomplex, heavier, higher center of gravity (roll over safety issue) , lower gas mileage c rew cab truck with a bed cover to get 6 passenger seating while holding luggage for 8 simultaneously.

It was the government and the higher CAFE fuel standards tha t pushed full sized cars out and people just moved to SUVs with a different CAFE standard to meet there transportation needs. So fuel consumption never m aterialized. Tall SUVs have more aerodynamic drag then a low long car, thus fuel economy in a hypothetical 2018 crown vic with 10 speed auto and 3.5l eco boost would easily beat an f-150.

Urambo Tauro > Tex 12/19/2018 at 23:47

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Yeah, t hat’s probably as close as we’re gonna get. sadface.jpg

Manolo Rae > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/20/2018 at 00:23

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My first car that i was able to drive (1st car was a 79 monte carlo with 26k miles on it in 2007, it was stolen when i got locked up later that day) was a 2004 Vic. 67k miles later (brought at 124k) I’ve had not one problem with it ! I haven’t even changed the oil yet!! I paid $ 2600 for it and just got another one with 58k miles on it for $3100!! What will the next Vic be? Can't say. Who knows? Who cares!? The Crown Victoria should go down as a classic. Then again, who am I to say? #cbf4life 

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Massivemunge 12/20/2018 at 00:58

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“ 200 plus NA horsepower”, woah dude,  how on earth do you control all that power? T hose are 4.0 liter V6 Mustang numbers, a known performance powerhouse and well respected sports car. 

Otto-the-Croatian-'Whoops my Volvo is a sedan' > For Sweden 12/20/2018 at 03:54

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I wish I could give you more stars.

CobraJoe > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/20/2018 at 10:00

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F150 Crew Cab.

They’re insanely popular now, both in fleets and in civilian models , also built tougher than any other passenger car, can easily carry the same passenger load and cargo load (and then some), and they’ll eventually get extremely cheap once the love for trucks slows down.

Trucks today are selling like the full size cars in the late 70s and 80s, and they’re also built similarly and often have luxury beyond the needs of a daily driver. 

CobraJoe > Jayhawk Jake 12/20/2018 at 10:21

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The crown vic (and all other body on frame full size sedans) were hugely popular 20-30 years ago. Back then, it wasn’t a small community of enthusiasts praising the car, it was a large section of the buying public.

Back then, it was still a hugely reliable (and more interestingly) incredibly tough car. All of the big BOF cars could ignore bumps that would rattle a small 80s unibody. The under stressed drivetrain was a bit slow, but it was a relaxing power delivery and required very minimal maintenance and repairs were easy when necessary.

By the end of the 90s, those benefits were not as obvious, as the small unibody cars were becoming stronger, the engines were becoming more reliable, and the roads were getting smoother. The Crown Vic soldiered on, still tough, still reliable, still smooth riding with relaxing power.... it just wasn’t as necessary or desirable as it used to be.

But the want for a large, tough, reliable vehicle is still there, the market is moving away from unibody sedans to trucks and SUVs.  If anything is going to be the true replacement for a Crown Vic, it’s probably a half ton crew cab truck, and the F150 is insanely popular right now, for fleets as well as civilian use. 

G_Body_Man: Sponsored by the number 3 > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/20/2018 at 14:23

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I’m pretty sure the Charger fits the bill considering it’s also a RWD domestic sedan built on ancient bones that has questionable body and electrical component quality and a rabid fanbase .

Seriously though, unless burnouts are high on your list of priorities there are way better cheap cars than a Crown Vic.

Jayhawk Jake > CobraJoe 12/20/2018 at 16:49

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Fair enough, though I don’t see the F150 truly reaching the cost/value of the Crown Vic. 

CobraJoe > Jayhawk Jake 12/21/2018 at 09:08

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I got a feeling it’ll happen, but it will take a few years for trucks to lose popularity to bring their prices down. By then, the market will be flooded with trucks, and they’re already somewhat affordable considering their capabilities.

NKato > LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com 12/21/2018 at 22:01

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Chevy will probably put out a new Caprice and continue putting out Tahoe PPV’s, and Ford is going to be forced to go the Four-Door-Mustang (Falcon) route if they want to claw back market share from Chevrolet. The Explorer got dinged pretty bad for having poor construction quality and crash safety ratings per modern standards.

So I’d say the next “Crown Vic” will probably be the Chevy Tahoe and the current Impala PPV, as well as the Explorer PUV. Problem is, when these vehicles are unibody (except the Tahoe, I think), any damage they incurred in service will severely diminish their value and maintenance worthiness.

After the loss of the Crown Vic , a lot of the police vehicle acquisitions have been all over the place. When the Tauruses were recognized as inadequate for dealing with police pursuits, they were relegated to supervisor and low-priority work, and fleet orders pretty much flatlined.

The Charger is the favored vehicle for pursuits and high risk patrol, while the Explorer is the favored vehicle for general-purpose patrol. Ultimately, most departments would prefer to stick to a single model, despite the maintenance headaches .

And currently, that’s the Ford Explorer.

NKato > Jayhawk Jake 12/21/2018 at 22:03

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The problem with this calculus is that cheap/reliable also pertains to cheap maintenance.

When the newer vehicles start costing about $60o just to replace a small, dinky motor in the wipers, or $1,200 to replace the Mass Airflow Sensor....you know there’s a problem with the automakers’ financial sense.

Jayhawk Jake > NKato 12/23/2018 at 15:23

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Show me one economy car where the MAF sensor costs $1200 to replace. A wiper motor doesn’t cost that much either, unless you include labor.

Also, did you not spend like $2000 to replace the axle on your CV?

NKato > Jayhawk Jake 12/23/2018 at 18:45

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$1300-ish for a new reman’d rear axle. The rest was labor. It’s labor that’s the real killer of wallets.

The $1200 MAF figure was a deliberate exaggeration, because it seems like dealerships like to inflate the prices.

PoPPaPork > GarageBoy 12/24/2018 at 14:32

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Cheap? How is 10 grand for a beat up 2WD SUV  with 160k miles cheap? The crown vic would be around 3 grand for a 2011

GarageBoy > PoPPaPork 12/28/2018 at 21:00

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Here in NYC, they're closer to 3-5k depending on how beat they are